Oil readings and Information

[vAtO]

All this information belong to this user ccdhowell
all im doing is post over here coz is a very good post to know more of OIL to understand what we put in our engines all the credit belong to ccdhowell
thanks.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I finally ran through two cycles of oil change with the Oil Extreme 5w30 oil that Kenny sent me. After the second oil run I took an oil sample and sent it off to Blackstone Analysis for a look-see into the oil, and my engine.

Here's the meat of the analysis:

There are several important numbers to look at for quad oil. The first is Moly, wet clutch oil shouldn't have too much moly in it, the Oil Extreme is good on this count with only 45 parts per million. I've run up to 800 ppm moly without any problems in my Raptor. The second, and very important part, is Zinc and Phosphorus, often called ZDDP. It is a critical compontent to oil used in a shared sump with the transmission. The higher the number of these two the better. The Oil Extreme fell quite a bit short on these two with 805ppm and 669ppm respectively. A premium oil designed for shared sump moto use would have over 1,000 each of these two. I really like Mobil One Racing 4T 10w40, it has 1,600ppm and 1,700ppm respectively. You really can't get too much of these two components, they protect the engine when the microscopic film of oil protecting the moving parts breaks down, this is called boundary lubrication. When you nail the throttle and that big piston leaps toward the bottom of it's stroke, chances are the boundary lubrication is temporarily broken and zinc and phosphorus will cushion the metal-to-metal contact. You will also notice a sky high number for calcium. Calcium is used in oil as a detergent and anti-foam agent, meaning that this oil will definitely keep your engine clean. I've never seen a calcium number that high, not even close.

And for those of you that don't think that changing oil often is important, this oil had 5 hours on it, has a full synthetic base stock and was sheared down to a 20 weight oil. That's right, a 20w oil in only 5 hours. I've seen guys say they change the oil after 2, 3, 4, or 5 rides, well, how much is the health of your engine worth? It is the oil basestock that shears and has nothing to do with the additive levels. The gears in the transmission and the wet clutch actually tear the large oil molecules apart rendering them useless as a lubricant. Change the oil after every spirited ride.

The bottle of Oil Extreme says it is an SM rated oil. That is an automotive classification made for the latest pollution controlled vehicles. IMO this oil will work great for daily driving in the family hauler, but I won't be using any more in my Raptor.

[vAtO]

As an example of an oil that works great in my Raptor I am including a UOA of Torco T4MXR 15w40 semi-synthetic racing oil. Notice the much higher zinc and phosphorus numbers and the much lower wear numbers toward the top of each analysis

[vAtO]

I have one more interesting UOA, it is from last October, I was running Red Line Racing 40wt oil.



This oil isn't specifically for wet clutch applications, and it shows in the amount of moly in the analysis. I called Red Line and talked with a technician, Steve I believe, and talked over with him the demands I placed on my engine while racing and this was the oil he recommended. I ordered a case of it from the internet and ran all of it over the course of the next several months. I firmly believe the polyeol esters that Red Line uses is the best lubrication available in the world, and they fortify their top shelf base stock with an overabundance of additives. Notice the moly in this analysis is over 900 ppm. I can't say the clutch slipped using this oil, but the clutch definitely had a "soft" feel to it so I switched oils after I ran through the case. Also notice that this oil is overkill in zinc and phosphorus, those numbers are huge. You'd be hard pressed to find numbers any higher in any oil made, period. Meaning that this oil provides long lasting shear protection curtisousy of it's best of base stock and unsurpassed wear protection thanks to the high level of ZDDP.

You will notice also that I had fuel dilution issues when this sample was taken, fuel was 2.5% of the sample, and that's too much. Fuel in the oil lowers the flash point and leads to a higher rate of shear by thinning the oil. I ran this sample 9 hours and it was sheared to a mid-30 weight oil; it started out a heavy 40wt oil.

The source of my fuel problems was a faulty fuel controller, that problem has been corrected and I haven't had more than 1% of fuel in any sample since.

Oil analysis can tell you a lot about your oil, and also the condition of the inside of your engine, how well your fuel system is working and even tell you if your air filter is letting it too much dirt. Dirt in the sample will show-up as silicon.

[vAtO]

It is important to get a virgin oil analysis of any oil you are serious about testing. A virgin sample will tell you the chemical make-up of the oil you are using so you can better interpret the results of the UOA. I have sampled quite a few virgin oils that I thought would make good oil for my Raptor, and, sadly have dismissed many of them as unacceptable. An example of an oil that wasn't what I thought it would be is Elf Sport 4 Campione. A virgin sample of it looks like this:


Notice the zinc and phosphorus don't quite measure up to what a good oil should be. I would have liked to run an oil this thick in the hot summer races down here in east Texas, but not this oil.

[vAtO]

One more thing about oil analysis. Take a look at the SUS Viscosity @ 210°F number. In the Red Line sample it is 63.3, now find that number in the far right-hand column of a chart like this:



...and trace left over to the column titled "SAE Engine" and this will tell you what weight your oil is at 210 degrees F, which is around the operating temperature of the oil. In this case the 63.3 corresponds to a mid-30wt oil. The Elf Sport 4 Campione number is 117.7, corresponding to a something over a 50wt oil. One thing this chart illustrates is that the viscosity of engine oils and gear oils are overlap and are actually similar. Most people think that gear oils are much thicker than engine oils because they use numbers like 75w90 or 80w90, but that is not the case at all. The Society for Automotive Engineers (SAE) decided long ago to use a different system to designate viscosity for the different types of oils because of the confusion that would be caused by calling them all the same viscosity. Imagine buying 10w30 engine oil and 10w30 gear oil. I say that is beyond the expectation of the general automotive public.

I love oil questions and consider myself an oil geek, so fire away if you have more ??.

[vAtO]

It's easier to answer the "what oils have you liked?" question because I switch oils often looking for the holy grail of oil performance.
So the "oil I like" list goes like this(order isn't important here):
-Red Line Racing 40wt, but only for a stock or 3mod machine. I suspect you'd have clutch slip in a higher HP machine.
-Torco T4MXR, I got great performance from this oil, but it is expensive for a semi-synthetic and I have to internet order it. It is a California oil and may be more available on the west coast.
-Mobil One Racing 4T, just a great oil, any time, for any reason
-Mobil One V-Twin, this is the heavier equivilent to the Racing 4T. Don't let the V-Twin label scare you, this oil is great in anything you want to run a 20w50 oil in.
-Maxima, just about any synthetic and semi-synthetic from these guys is above average to great. Except their new 530MX. I ran some 530MX for one oil change and it seemed too thin(it is a very thin 30wt to start with). The engine had more noise, vibration and harshness with it in there.

In my quad right now is...Mobil One Racing 4T. I actually haven't sampled it yet in my Raptor, but I intend to. I have never seen a bad UOA from this oil though.

You dune guys might start with Racing 4T, after the second change of oil take a sample to see if the viscocity is holding up. Ya'll may find that the V-Twin works better and gives your engine more protection for a hot day duning.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, if I didn't mention the oil that you are in love with, that just means that chances are I haven't tried it. Instead of hoping on the thread telling me how great your oil is, why don't you send in a virgin sample for analysis and show up with proof?



Quote:
Originally Posted by joewitafro
^^ I agree.. ATM im using the Yamalube 10w30, should I be findind something else? lol.

I hate to bring the bad news, but I have never seen a great UOA with Yamalube. Granted, I haven't seen a VOA or UOA for the 10w30, but the the other Yamalube oils are in the "barely adequate" catagory. The level of protection might be great for a utility rider that never pushes their engine, but IMO not for the average Raptor rider. You could always send in an oil sample and read the analysis to see how it's working for you, and then let me know so I can evaluate this oil too.

[vAtO]

For those that are interested in sending in oil for an analysis; I always use Blackstone Labratories, not because they are the best, who know?, but because they are super-easy to deal with.

Just go to their website, Blackstone Labs, and click on the "free test kit!" and they will send you an oil analysis kit for free. Follow the instructions, and mail it back to them. Be sure to give them your email address and they will email you the results back, mine usually take about a week.

I am not associated with Blackstone Labs in any way, just found them to be easy and effective.

[vAtO]

I just dumped my last run of Silkolene, I bought a case of it a while back and used the whole thing. You have to watch what you buy with Silkolene, they make some very good oils, and some rather plain oils too. Don't let the exotic name lull you into believeing that they're all good. Odd thing about the Silkolene I bought...Silkolene is a UK company that was recently bought by Fuchs, a german company, the bottle said my oil was made in the USA. Go figure.

[vAtO]

I'm using the Comp 4 in 20w50 and I like it, but have not had it tested. It is a semi-synthetic.

Silkolene uses a high ester content full synthetic oil. Esters are the best lubricants; the ones used in jet turbines(they turn 20,000+ rpms). Esters are polar molecules that actually cling to metal surfaces so the oils stays put in vital areas. You also get a bit more cold start protection because the oil hasn't drained away.

The Silkolene full synthetics are: Pro 4, Pro 4 SX, and Pro 4 Plus. The Pro 4 SX is advertised as an off road formulation so it probably has some more rust inhibitors in it. The Pro 4 Plus is a very expensive oil, like $21.95 a liter, but it's probably the cat's meow inside your engine.

What makes one synthetic more expensive than another is the type of synthetic base stock used and in what percentage they are blended. There are three types of synthetic base stocks. 1) Severely Hydrocracked Petroleum, this is the cheaped but most widely used. It is also the newest in terms of technology, doesn't mean it's the best though. This type is actually regular dino crude that has been so highly refined that it approaches the physical properties of synthetic oils. 2) PAO, this is an older type of synthetic, often called group IV synthetic. It is often made from refined natural gas. The molecular structure of this type is very uniform which leads to a naturally high viscosity index, reducing the amount of VIIs used to make the viscosity range. This is the base stock used for many of the highly reguarded synthetic oils on the market, Mobil One, Torco and Amsoil to name three. Group IV oils are not polar. 3)PEO, Group V oils are often called esters. They are actually the chemical relative of animal fat, and are naturally polar. There are a few oils that used predominately esters as their base stock, i.e. Red Line, Motul 300V, Silkolene Pro 4 Plus, and Maxima Ultra. All of these oils will be scary expensive and probably perform the best in your engine in severe use. Esters have a naturally very high viscosity index which means that often no(zero, nada, none) VIIs are are used in these oils. Esters will be much much less likely to shear and will maintain their viscosity longer and in more severe conditions(read racing and dunning).

Regardless of the primary base stock of an oil and the marketing hype used to promote it, all oils are actually blends. Group 1 oil, plain old-fashioned dino oil, is used as the additive carrier in most every oil I've known of. Certain chemical properties of the various types of base stocks also require other blending to overcome specific problems. For example, PAO oils are hard on engine seals, they cause them to shrink and harden, (remember back when synthetic oils made engines leak?) this is overcome by blending in a bit of PEO oil, or hydrocracked oil to soften the seals.

[vAtO]

That's a good selection of premium brands. I've not run Motorex, a Swiss brand of oil, but it is highly regarded and the factory fill for KTM bikes and quads. Motorex makes an ATV Quad Racing oil in 10w50 that I'd be interested in trying, it's supposed to be great stuff. Their regular ATV oil is a semi-synthetic, should be pretty good, but IDK. Cross Power 4T, Top Speed 4T and Power Synt 4T are all fully synthetic. I think Motorex uses Group IV, PAO, basestocks on most of their synthetic oils, but the cheaper of these, Top Speed 4T, uses hydrocracked base stocks.

Maxima makes some very good oils. Look at their Ultra4, it is a predominately ester basestock and would be great, but you're gonna pay for it. Their Maxum4 Extra synthetic is a PAO synthetic that is very good. I've had good luck with their Maxum4 Blend, a synthetic blend oil. Maxima uses very high levels of ZDDP to protect the trans gears and cushion rod bearings and camshafts. I don't like Maxima 530MX, I think it's too thin in Raptor engines.

Motul makes possibly the very best moto oil in the business in their 300V. It is a pure ester basestock with high additive levels. This oil is used by many MotoGP teams. The downside is this is probably the most expensive oil you can buy. Motul's other products are all good, except I've used their ATV synthetic blend and didn't like the shift feel at all. I didn't sample it however.

Silkolene makes some very good oils, but some are not worth the extra money you pay for the name. I just ran through a case of Silkolene Comp 4 semi-synthetic in 20w50 and liked it even though I didn't sample the oil.(I've had more problems this racing season that kept me from spending the oil analysis money lately.) Silkolene Pro 4 Plus is an ester synthetic, expensive, but probably very good. Silkolene ATV oil is a dino oil, haven't used it, but I could see a premium price at a dealer for a rather pedestrian oil.

If I had those brands at my dealership I would truly be in heaven, lots of good choices there. All things being equal, Maxima is an American company and if there was a good oil available from Maxima at a good price, I'd have to spend my money there. If money is no object, go for the Motul 300V, it's the best of the bunch, IMO.

If you've read this entire thread, then you may have noticed that I've used a lot of semi-synthetic(synthetic blend, same thing) oils. I like the cost, performance ratio of semi-synthetic oils, you get just enough of the good stuff to make a big difference without the big price of full synthetic oil, especially if the synthetic component is ester synthetic as is the case in the Silkolene I've been using.

Hope this helps.

[vAtO]

Thanks man. I like oil(weird hobby I know) and it burns me up when idiots get online and post up a bunch of hearsay and lies about oil, especially when information is verifiable with a simple used oil analysis. It is a vital part of all of our high-priced engines and people need accurate information. I do not believe I have said anything that isn't 100% accurate. My understanding of oil chemistry and technology is limited at best, but I have tried to learn as much as I can. I am happy to pass along what I have learned from exhaustive reading on the internet and personal experience, but at this point, I'm about taped-out with all the knowledge that I know about oil.

Of course all of the info I have given out is totally from my point of view, there is a large spectrum of riders that use diesel oils like Rotella T and Delo 400 with good results. It's just that I do not believe this is the best oil for our engines, others may disagree.

[vAtO]

Thought I might give those interested a little more reading on oil. Here is a link to an article that does a good job explaining the how's and why's of moto engine lubrication.

Link here.
http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

Enjoy the read.

[Colorado700R]

Thank you very much vAto, and especially to ccdhowell for allowing you to share this info

[dragonz]

This is definately the "good oil" & timely too as I'm just about to go buy some oil for the rappy today 

[vAtO]

Mobil One Racing 4T Used Oil Analysis

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Finally got around to sending in a sample of Mobil One Racing 4T from my Raptor. I really can't find anything to complain about in this sample, the wear metals look good, not great but I run it pretty hard. The additives phosphorus and zinc are really big numbers and there's a little bit of moly in there to reduce friction. The common wisdom says that you don't want moly in a wet clutch engine, but practically you can have quite a lot of moly in an oil without causing clutch slippage, especially if you're not running a high HP engine. Take a look at the SUS Viscosity at 212F, it is 64.8, which actually is a 30wt number. So what this says is that one of the best synthetic oils money can buy got sheared from a 40wt to a 30wt in just 6 hours, now that's strong stuff there. Don't play around with oil in these Raptor engines, change it often, even if you're paying the big bucks for a "super-duper" oil. Notice also that the fuel, antifreeze, water, and insolubles all look good. This tells me that this engine is looking good mechanically, even though it's getting long in the tooth(125 hrs).

Here's the UOA.